Discipline of Children

In the interest of not "taking over" Anne's blog in her comments section...I'm going to post some comments here on my blog in regards to a discussion that has gotten going in the comments to one of her posts...

Molly said:

A great example is the Pearl's themselves. From everything one can read, it seems their 5 children turned out wonderfully.

Well...I think that I turned out "wonderfully" too. That doesn't mean that anyone should emulate my parents' methods. {snip--go to Anne's blog if you really want the details}

I wanted to follow up just a bit on the concept that the Pearl’s kids turned out so great…this is a comment that one of their daughters made in an article:

For years, I stumbled around trying to get a grip on my emotions (anger, hurt, or disappointment), but it never worked. I could suppress them for a time, but then I would let go and erupt like a volcano, letting insults fly. Also, once emotions were let loose, it was easier to turn them towards the little ones when they misbehaved.

(Editted...Color me embarrassed...when I went to get the URL where this quote could be found on the Pearl's "No Greater Joy" website I realized that it was NOT one of Pearl's daughters who wrote the article, but rather someone named "Marie." However...I still stand by my position that just because children seem to have turned out "wonderfully," that doesn't always tell the whole story.)

Here we have her revealing just a glimpse into her “real world,” and it isn’t exactly pretty. Its actually very familiar to me, as I had the same struggles until I addressed the issues from my childhood. We need to remember that just as we put our “best foot forward” when we go out in public, so does every other family. What is seen on the outside is not always reality. What people thought of my family growing up was that my parents must be doing a great job because my siblings and I were so helpful and obedient…and my brother and I did SO well in school (he went to college a year early, I skipped a year in high school…lets just say we were motivated to get out of our parents’ house…).

Molly said:

And the Pearl's condoning abuse within the family, especially incest? I'm thinking this may be yet another case where they are being taken out of context... The Pearl's tell the wife of an incestuous man to call the police, report him, testify AGAINST him, and get him locked up for a long time. If she wants to stay married to him, fine, but to keep him in jail for as long as the children are still in the home. I fail to see how that is a terrible horrible thing...?

I never said they "condoned" abuse or incest within the family, I said that "their position on abuse within the family, especially incest, also sickens me." And it does. Michael instructs that a women in a physically abusive relationship should stay in it, and comes pretty close to saying it is her fault in my opinion. I believe that he does "allow" that she can be separated from him if he is physically harming the kids, but quite frankly, I don't feel like taking the time right now to verify that.

As for incest...its hard to get a "stranger rapist" locked up for the 20-40 years that Pearl advocates even with a solid conviction against him, let alone an incestuous father. There is often little to no physical evidence as the incest often is revealed significantly after it occurred. It is EXTREMELY hard to make a conviction for incest "stick." Even if it does, the sentence is usually light. Even if the sentence is not light, Pearl does not say "if she wants to stay married to him, fine." He says that she should stay married to him--implies that she MUST to be in obediance to scripture--and that she should take him back into her bed (he specifies that) upon release from prison regardless of whether or not he has repented (though he assumes the father will repent, as he describes prisons as a great place for contemplation and repentance...). What kind of message does that send to the victims if mom takes dad right back--regardless of whether or not he repented? What kind of risk is she exposing her grandchildren to? What kind of a person do you think he is going to come out of prison being? Given how child abusers are treated in prison, do you really think he is going to be a Godly husband to the wife who turned him over to the authorities?

For the record, I know someone very well who was sexually abused by her older brother (4-5 years older than her) for several years. Her other brother was aware of the abuse, but kept a pact of silence with her that she insisted on because she did not want the abusive brother to go to jail. When she finally revealed the abuse her family got councilling. I met her at that point in her life. Because her brother was no longer in a position where he could abuse her or at that time in a position where he had any access to other young girls that he could abuse, she did not report the abuse to the police. It took several years, but the relationships in her family have been restored. Her brother, several years after the abuse was revealed, began to be convicted of his sin, and asked her forgiveness. The change in their relationship has been beautiful. She trusts her formly abusive brother, and has no fear at all that he would abuse his own daughter the way he abused her. If you were to meet her today and see her interact with this brother you would never suspect what happened between them. I know that restoration CAN happen, and when it does...that is a wonderful thing and a display of God's power.

But sadly, that is the only example of restoration I can give you. All of the other women I know who were sexually abused--and I know many--can tell you sad stories of attempts at Biblical reconcilliation that were rebuffed, leading to broken families...or others who simply never confronted their abusers and thus the relationships remain strained or broken.

Molly said:

What happened in your childhood is disgusting. But do you, for example, stop using the bathroom now because they were abusive towards you (regarding only letting you go three times a day?). I've been known to make my children wait to go to the bathroom (when we're in the middle of a trip to town and have 5 minutes to go, and they announce that they have to pee or they'll die!). *grin* Is that abuse, or is it just practical (no bathrooms in sight for 5 minutes!).
Is all discipline a bad thing, because your parents abused their parental authority? You see what I'm saying...

The analogy doesn’t work. My parents were unreasonably restricting a necessary bodily function. To make the analogy a LITTLE bit closer to “working” we would have to go with me “never restricting the child’s access to the bathroom.” And as you point out, that is unreasonable as well. There is a middle ground—sometimes the child will have to wait. But I don’t arbitrarily tell my children how many times they are “allowed” to use the bathroom each day.

I never said that “all discipline is a bad thing.” Discipline is necessary and commanded by scripture. But I don’t think that the Pearl’s brand of “the rod is magic” discipline is right.

Do I think that all discipline in the form of corporal punishment--"spanking" or "swatting" is abuse? This is something that I've been really grappling with over the last couple of months. It seems too judgemental to out and out say that any use of corporal punishment of children is abusive. So I've attempted to draw an analogy, and it has steered my thinking a lot.

Is it appropriate for a husband to “discipline” his wife? I think it is. I think that part of the role of a husband as the head of the household is to teach his wife, to help guide her in Godly maturity. My husband does not hit me to “discipline” me. He prays with/for me. He talks to me. He models the correct way to do things, perhaps even walking me through something step by step. He suggests books for me to read. If I reach toward a power tool that he is using while it is turned on he does not "swat my hand" and tell me to keep away. He might grab ahold of my hand and pull it away (or he might verbally warn me of the danger), but he does not swat me.

I would assume based on reading some of Molly's blog that she would agree with this concept of discipline between a husband and wife. Given that assumption…is ever NOT abusive for a husband to hit his wife to “discipline” her? I don’t believe it is. I think every time a husband hits his wife to “discipline” her it is an abusive event. Now that doesn’t mean I think that the over all relationship is abusive—it may not be. He may be deeply grieved to “have” to hit her, but may feel it is something he must do so that she will learn godly behavior. But I do believe that regardless of the motivation, if a husband hits his wife to “discipline” her that it would be an act of abuse.

There was a time in the not so distant past that the corporal punishment of wives by their husbands was defended in the mainstream using verses in Proverbs discussing the rod of correction for the back of fools ("domestic discipline" is still promoted by some people, but thankfully it is no longer accepted by the Christian culture at large). I think that was a gross misrepresentation of the scriptures. Similarly, I think that attempting to use the verses in Proverbs that connects the rod to parenting in an attempt to support spanking of young children is a gross misrepresentation of the meaning of these scriptures.

So yes, I do believe that corporal punishment of children, even if it occurs in the context of a loving family relationship, is abusive. It's more "politically correct" to say that "I don't believe that the scripture endorses spanking, but perhaps some parents can use it in a way that is beneficial and good..." But I think that is taking the "easy" way out of the question, straddling the fence in many ways. It is not really "easy" for me to say in a public forum that I believe all corporal punishment of children is abusive. I am saying that the majority of parents in America have engaged in behavior toward their children that I believe is abusive. I am saying that I have engaged in behavior toward my children that I believe is abusive. I struggle with this. It creates "cognitive dissonance." But it is where I am at right now.